Op. 27, No. 2. There’s a lot going on here. This is much slower than anyone else plays it. My contention is that in modern performance practice, we interpret metronome marks from this era incorrectly, in a way that leads us to play too quickly. I’m playing more or less according to what I believe to be an accurate reading of Czerny’s marking of quarter note = 60. Actually, I’m a tad fast, and I rush a little bit.
I understand this sounds weird to modern ears that have only heard this faster. I get that it might sound improbable. The thing is, the faster interpretation leads to pieces that are literally IMPOSSIBLE to play. Namely, the Hammerklavier sonata. All things being equal, improbably slow is still plausible, while impossibly fast isn’t. There’s certainly room for study here. But I’ll stop claiming this is authentic, when THEY stop claiming that it isn’t. Because they don’t know.
Some here have suggested that this music at this tempo is somehow agonizing. I've gotta say...I just do not find that to be the case. I don't have a problem believing this to be a 19th c Adagio. I think it's quite beautiful, actually. The 16ths v triplets makes more sense. It's easier to maintain a triplet feel in the long diminished arpeggios of the development section. In short, I find this speed regime to be absolutely workable.
Another thing I’m sticking closer to than most modern performers, is Beethoven’s performance instruction of “always without dampers.” This performance instruction makes much more sense at the slower tempo, as harmonies have more time to die out without having to clear the pedal. Nevertheless, on a modern more resonant grand, I do clear the pedal occasionally out of an attempt to get closer to what I think a fortepiano might’ve sounded like, i.e. less muddy.
Regardless of your beliefs, I hope you can enjoy the performance as much as I enjoyed playing it!
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You really can play well. It's a shame you're such a crackpot.
Ah yes, the double beat theory... the tinfoil hat of classical music
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The 'no dampers' effect at this tempo is interesting!
Pro/Gig Musician
Sure, Jan.
Why do mods tolerate posts like this? This is obviously rage bait, and excellently displays how wholebeaters are the flat earthers of the classical music community. Because of the flair, you get your comment removed if you in any way address the ramblings in the text section. The "No critique" flair should only count for performances - not long appeals like this post.
Ok I understand how his takes are pretty dumb but I absolutely don’t see a point of the mods banning him. And calling people who like it very slow “flat earthers of classical music” is just too harsh.
Mod here. Thank you for your comments. We would not remove comments addressing the points in the text, because you're right: it's not reasonable for a poster to write a treatise with a bunch of claims and discussion points below a performance and potentially try to prevent discussion by hiding behind a flair, as that is not at all what the "No critique" flair is meant for. So feel free to comment away on those points, just try to keep it fairly civil. We're also not removing the post, as sharing a performance & controversial opinions is generally OK, within reason. Of course, at some point, too-frequent posting about the same topic can become spam or "rage bait" not conducive to productive discussion, depending on how the opinions are shared, but I don't think we're at that point yet. We try to be fairly reasonable and as hands-off as we can be, while maintaining the rules/guidelines and keeping r/piano a welcoming place for all. But again, I do understand your valid point about the abuse of the flair, which we don't want to become a thing, and we will think about the best way to address it. Thanks!
Just because the markings in Hammerklavier are too fast for you doesn’t mean this piece is supposed to be played at half tempo. This is not evidence. How can you reasonably claim that when Czerny marked this at Quarter Note = 60 BPM he actually meant 30? You ignore the largest and most important piece of evidence that is right in front of your face in order to stroke your ego (or something I really can’t tell). Have you ever wondered why no serious academic or historian takes your side on this? Because there is no reasonable evidence for such a claim. Good musicianship is being able to analyze music and make a reasonable interpretation based on the markings the composer wrote, or lack of. There is plenty of music by Bach, for example, with no tempo markings, and yet performers mostly agree on the approximate tempo, because their intuition allows them to look at the music and figure out the speed that it makes the most sense at. Most professional musicians would look a the same Bach melody and come to similar conclusions about the tempo by looking at its harmony, rhythm, and style. And yet here you are, ignoring all evidence. I could never imagine a composer intending this piece to sound this way. He already repeats each chord twice, and by halving the tempo you are making the already slow harmonic rhythm absurdly slow. The marking is Andante Sostenuto, but the piano doesn’t have enough sustain to connect the melody at all in this tempo. This is why you don’t play the melody with any phrasing, because how the hell would you at this tempo?
The marking is Andante Sostenuto, but the piano doesn’t have enough sustain to connect the melody at all in this tempo.
And the problem would be even more dramatic on Beethoven's piano.
I always see so many people reasoning, bringing arguments, asking questions, all ignored because they just ignore it and choose to not believe it. It's ragebait at this point. Interaction is useless. However, I appreciate comments like yours as these are important fact checking comments.
Bravo! The tempo gives this piece a more profound feel, as the listener can truly indulge in every chord progression. 🎶 If you want to double this tempo, you would also have to double these tempi as well.
SUR i here your panio playing this MORNING it is the MOST BEUTFIUL i ever here in MY LIFE! I love it in my HEART share it with my childern and grandaughter again BLESSINGS to you sir it is the best. from EATERN EUROPE