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r/asoiaf · u/Plus_Claim_8938Aug 1, 2026, 3:00 PM

Martin’s inability to finish the series has made it so that every new lore drop/expansion of the story will be controversial [spoilers extended]

I’m sorry if this has already been stated but the reaction to the new play & House of The Dragon has made me believe this to be true. I have many, many issues with the some of the character arcs on HOTD and I do think the writing leaves a lot to be desired. However, about 25% of complaints against the show are “you’re not following the head canon I created for this thinly developed character/relationship”. The divisive reaction to the new play follows the same mantra. After so many years on waiting for the books to be completed and for answers to be questioned, fans have filled in the blanks themselves. For them, random AO3 fanfic, fan art, and their own head canons have become the true canon. For years, they have spoken about characters like Elia Martell, Valarr Targaryen, and Laena Velaryon with such conviction that you would think think they had a 10 part book series instead of references/character descriptions that could fit on a single book page.

Even A Knight of The Seven Kingdoms, a great adaption, has received criticism any time it went against head canons. What happens if they ever move past the third story and start making character decisions that go against popular fanon?

I feel like all of this could have been avoided if Martin finished the main story in the early 2000s and wrapped up the major parts of the lore in the 2010s. Fans wouldn’t have had the time to create their own head canons or create expectations in their minds that are impossible to meet.

131

Comments

u/Plus_Claim_89381Aug 1, 2026, 3:03 PM
And if Mad Queen Dany is his true intention, he should wrapped this story up before signing off on a Game of Thrones adaption because Dany and The Targaryen dynasty as a whole has amassed a huge following that will never be satisfied with that ending no matter how well written. It would be easier for them to accept if the fanbase has grown with the full know of Dany’s ending.
- u/RoseWhiteRedBlack1Aug 1, 2026, 3:12 PM
  THIS so much. I' ve never seen a popular rewrite for GoT that actually addressed this plot point, because no matter how much you justify it, people genuinely 100% believe that Dany is going to either win the throne or be a positive/tragic figure in the end.
  - u/Makasi_Motema1Aug 1, 2026, 4:32 PM2 replies
  - u/Legal-Lemon-87461Aug 1, 2026, 4:33 PM1 reply
  - u/Vringi1Aug 1, 2026, 5:38 PM
- u/Commercial-Egg-89491Aug 1, 2026, 5:19 PM
  Wait but I thought complaints centered on characters/things not being what you thought they were or wanted them to be (that is, "headcannon") were invalid? Why does it matter what people have built up the Targ dynasty to be for themselves? Isn't that just headcannon? Are we not disparaging that here?
  - u/AnEmptyKarst1Aug 1, 2026, 6:03 PM1 reply
u/lee10261Aug 1, 2026, 3:05 PM
Hot take: these minor lore drops would be far less interesting and far less profitable, if GRRM actually gave away the plot by finishing the books.
- u/nymrose1Aug 1, 2026, 3:45 PM
  Wow what a hot take 🤣
- u/BrandonLart1Aug 1, 2026, 3:47 PM
  The ASOIAF series would be significantly less popular if it was finished in a reasonable amount of time. The unfinished nature of the series *was* what allowed the fandom to stay attached for so long.
  - u/Flickolas_Cage1Aug 1, 2026, 4:06 PM1 reply
  - u/TheNaijaboi1Aug 1, 2026, 5:30 PM1 reply
- u/beridam1Aug 1, 2026, 4:37 PM
  Extremely daring take. SWAT are en route to your house. If you were a spice you'd be flour.
- u/Vringi1Aug 1, 2026, 5:07 PM
  It's a take as hot as Antarctica.
u/Elven-King1Aug 1, 2026, 3:06 PM
It is simply ridiculous that important information about the series story is relayed from a limited group of people who attended the play.
- u/Ste1031Aug 1, 2026, 3:43 PM
  It's like what happened with Stranger Things but worse (for us at least) - so annoying for those us who can't go and see it in the theatre.
- u/Makasi_Motema1Aug 1, 2026, 4:25 PM
  George has repeatedly shown contempt for his fanbase, but people are in complete denial about it.
  - u/dishonourableaccount1Aug 1, 2026, 4:35 PM2 replies
u/GreatExpeslaytions1Aug 1, 2026, 3:09 PM
The disastrous ending of the main show, as well as the dubious quality of the spin offs have made this fandom prone to extreme and sometimes exaggerated criticisms (occasional nitpicking, if you will). Now add the long wait, that has led to people making up their own little version of Winds in their head and a recent tendency to embrace twitter-esque stan culture for their "faves" and an anti stan culture for the characters they dislike and you have... the asoiaf fandom in its current form.
- u/TutorRich22681Aug 1, 2026, 5:52 PM
  The agenda wars have brought near ruin to actual engagement with the text- but what else can be done once every line has been mauled over for half a generation?
  - u/GreatExpeslaytions1Aug 1, 2026, 5:57 PM
u/Middle-Tradition22751Aug 1, 2026, 3:10 PM
i'd say that people would actually be more generous with things like the mad king play if we had the full finished series. but because of the lack of content, people are using the play as a substitute for the books and filling up spoiler threads and tweets with thousands of interactions
u/DaemonBlackfyre_211Aug 1, 2026, 3:14 PM
I absolutely agree. He's let it lie stagnant for so long that headcanon has calcified. I wonder how folk would react to finding out Daeron II was in fact Aemon's Bastard son, and that Brynden Rivers only supported him and won his war because visions drove him to prune the family tree. Perhaps he could see that Azor Ahai would come from Aemon's line and that Aegon's would end in a deformed two headed monster long before it could fulfill the prophecy so he helped shunt the line of succession to The Dragonknight.
- u/flyingsquirrel-201Aug 1, 2026, 3:20 PM
  This is just as much headcannon as OP mentioned
  - u/DaemonBlackfyre_211Aug 1, 2026, 5:12 PM
- u/TutorRich22681Aug 1, 2026, 6:06 PM
  Yeah, Bloodraven pruning the family and loving Daemon I is likely canon, similar to Egg burning his family and Dunk stabbing him in the back, so to speak. Which Gurm basically added to AKoSK.
u/RosbergThe8th1Aug 1, 2026, 3:17 PM
Yeah that is sort of the key to this, this whole Mad King debacle only really made me realize how much I wish ASOIAF was just a book series, imagine that? Imagine a world where George had already written the mainline book series and alongside them he'd also written a whole slew of Dunk & Egg, a Mad King/Robert's Rebellion thing focusing on the political leadup to the rebellion and then the rebellion itself. Another Fire and Blood book, probably an even more ancient Prequel somewhere along the line and more out there ideas still as I don't doubt George would relish exploring different sides of Westeros for years to come. Instead we keep getting these breadcrumbs filtered through secondary media that rarely have the capacity to match the quality of the series proper.
- u/JimGuitar1Aug 1, 2026, 4:45 PM
  I really wish GRRM was more of an author. I love his books. I wish he’d finished ASOIAF years ago and we could see what other cool ideas outside of that world he could come up with. Instead it feels like we’ve gotten year after year of half baked adaptions that have never really scratched the original itch.
  - u/Berkyjay1Aug 1, 2026, 5:38 PM
- u/berthem1Aug 1, 2026, 5:10 PM
  Franchises feel like inevitable slopification. I'm not disparaging all of the extended media that has branched out from the ASOIAF novels, but there is something about having the world grow bigger than its original story that can feel so... un-immersive? The different mediums, the different considerations of meta and canon, it really takes you out of things. It would be nice to just be able to focus on the story.
  - u/_AnecdotalEvidence_1Aug 1, 2026, 6:04 PM
- u/Dangerman13371Aug 1, 2026, 5:43 PM
  Two years ago in Oxford GRRM cited Gene Wolfe writing all 4 books of The Book Of The New Sun before releasing them and a day job to edit them back.
- u/tiofrodo1Aug 1, 2026, 5:44 PM
  I don't know, the reality is that this degree of separation that exists because technically George isn't involved with any of these projects in position of powers allows the community at large to decide what aspects of it came from George(i.e they like it) and what aspects are headcanons by some crazy directors(i.e they don't like it). There is no guarantee that the books were going to be of the same quality as the ones that have already been released as we can see by the fact that Fire & Blood exists.
u/masegesege_1Aug 1, 2026, 3:20 PM
Even if the Mad King play was full of awesome stuff I’d still be pissed off that I got those reveals from online spoilers of a play I’ll never see rather than the books that should have been finished a decade ago.
- u/AdCute13111Aug 1, 2026, 3:42 PM
  But it's so much easier to harp on about people's supposed 'headcanon' than address this point, which is the largest part of the reason for the outcry.
- u/SpicyStrawberryJuice1Aug 1, 2026, 4:17 PM
  exactly
- u/Makasi_Motema1Aug 1, 2026, 4:22 PM
  There’s something particularly bitter about George using a play to reveal this information. ASOIAF is an international mass market success. People all over the world can experience the entire series for like forty bucks. Making this information exclusive to a play that requires super expensive tickets, and for most people, plane flights and hotel stays, is just gross.
  - u/CharityAutomatic86871Aug 1, 2026, 4:56 PM
  - u/_AnecdotalEvidence_1Aug 1, 2026, 6:08 PM
- u/TutorRich22681Aug 1, 2026, 5:50 PM
  Exactly, we basically have to trust people's faulty interpretations of that play anyway.
- u/RosbergThe8th1Aug 1, 2026, 6:20 PM
  It's arguably one of the most exclusive media types he could have chosen for essentially wholly stripping away the mystique of the "founding myth" behind ASOIAF's central political struggle.
u/Vantol1Aug 1, 2026, 3:25 PM
Well, it’s not GRRMs fault the fanbase sank too deep into their headcanons. I agree it doesn’t bode well for Winds reception though. If some people can’t handle a new take on freakin Elia Martell, I can’t even imagine the outrage if some beloved character meet their end, especially someone to whom people developed unhealthy attachment over the years, like for Sansa for example.
- u/Mafekiang1Aug 1, 2026, 3:55 PM
  It kind of is, though. It's been 15 years since the last book. Since this is the 30th anniversary of Game if Thrones, literally half the life of this series has been filled with people making headcanon due to lack of new material.
u/Blueberry_H3AD1Aug 1, 2026, 3:38 PM
Oh well. I mean it’s his problem because as they make more hit shows, and yes they are hits whether you like them or not, new generations won’t even know they are based on books at all.
u/Jon-Umber1Aug 1, 2026, 3:44 PM
The issue is individual hardcore fans have already finished the series in their own heads. Any way that differs from what Martin (or his successor) arrives at will disappoint them. Some won't handle it well. Honestly, I think a lot of fans take it for granted how fun it is to interact in this fandom. There's such a flush of ideas and discussion, it's really special. Sure, some of it silly and some is even stupid, but that's all part of the charm. I love this fandom and I've really enjoy my time with it over the past \~20 years. I just wish people would be nicer to George. He's doing his best.
- u/Makasi_Motema1Aug 1, 2026, 4:33 PM
  He’s clearly not doing his best
  - u/Jon-Umber1Aug 1, 2026, 4:51 PM
- u/inktrap991Aug 1, 2026, 5:05 PM
  Yeah, this is one of things that saddens me a bit and kinda makes dread the day that TWOW gets published (either by Martin or another writer), and I wonder if isn’t a factor in this whole delay and the maybe-testing of plot-relevant spoilers given through side material. People have spent so much time staring at the orb and creating their own version of the story tailored to themselves (me included) that no book in existence will be able to satisfy them. I just kinda want Martin to write the story he wants and be proud of it, I think that the should be aim of any writer or artist. If I don’t like it, well that sucks, I will write fanfic. If I like it, good! Hallelujah!
- u/Koushik_Vijayakumar1Aug 1, 2026, 6:15 PM
  
  He's doing his best.
  
  You believe this? Truly?
u/McZadine1Aug 1, 2026, 3:48 PM
People getting overly attached to their headcanons and throwing a fit when they are proven wrong is their own fault, not Martin’s. It’s not the author’s fault people can’t enjoy fiction in a heatlhy way
u/WanderingHero81Aug 1, 2026, 3:49 PM
Sorry but all those shows (HOTD,AKOTSK,The Play) are simply adaptions.It takes a huge leap to declare any info as canon when many things are outright contradicted by the source material.
- u/Plus_Claim_89381Aug 1, 2026, 4:20 PM
  Yes, they’re all adaptions and I’ve already said I have issues with the writing but these adaptions all introduced new lore that we know 100% came from Martin: Shireen being burned alive, Aegon the conqueror being in part motivated by a dream of the white walkers, etc. Martin was supposedly closely involved with the play and new details revealed in the play apparently come from him. Only the books are canon but if he or his successor ever gets around to completing the books series and reintroduces these plot points, we have already seen that there will be fans who aren’t happy about it.
  - u/dishonourableaccount1Aug 1, 2026, 4:42 PM
  - u/Crush11121Aug 1, 2026, 5:56 PM
u/polp541Aug 1, 2026, 3:59 PM
I don’t disagree but I think a lot of people have a resentment they may not even be aware of based on the fact that a very small percentage of ASOIAF will actually be able to see the play
u/iatethemoon1Aug 1, 2026, 4:07 PM
I just cant get over that apparently every single person in Dorne is bisexual AND promiscuous AND polygamous. Did anyone headcannon Elia and Ashara? Feels like a teenage boys sexual fantasy. Such a 90s way to look at bisexual people.
- u/McZadine1Aug 1, 2026, 5:13 PM
  Funny of you to say this when as far as we know Doran the prince of Dorne aka the main representative of the land, is a heterosexual monogamous dude
  - u/greydorothy1Aug 1, 2026, 5:25 PM1 reply
  - u/Koushik_Vijayakumar1Aug 1, 2026, 6:46 PM
- u/SiblingBondingLover1Aug 1, 2026, 6:45 PM
  Every single woman you mean, but yep its such an orientalist way to look at dorne
u/Makasi_Motema1Aug 1, 2026, 4:13 PM
Absolutely. George made a mess of his own franchise.
- u/berthem1Aug 1, 2026, 5:15 PM
  People would be forgiving of a lot of things that have issues conceptually if it was delivered through prose, getting to hear the characters' thoughts or some thematic statement, just what the relevance of it would be in the story. By having it established through extended media / spinoffs, there isn't anything to do but wait around for the disappointingly-received reveals to be repackaged in a slightly more appealing format.
  - u/_AnecdotalEvidence_1Aug 1, 2026, 6:06 PM
u/Kareeminherface17101Aug 1, 2026, 4:18 PM
This is easy to figure out. Nothing is canon in the lore until it is written in a book. Everything else might as well be fanfic
u/No-Personality-14951Aug 1, 2026, 4:24 PM
We have known for years about the exsistence of the play. It wasn't a secret. We always knew that Martin gave some informations to the writers of the play. But many in the fandom believed that we already knew everything about the Tourney of Harrenhal. So they expected the play to confirm popular theory like "Lyanna=TKOTLT" and reveal the identity of Ashara's baby father and nothing more. It turns out that actually we know nothing about Robert's Rebellion, just like we know nothing about Sansa's fate or Summerhall. The fandom wants to believe that we can simply guess the future of the saga, but it's impossible. Think about that: if there was a gap of 15 years between ACOK and ASOS, how many fans would have correctly guessed the marriage between Jeyne Westerling and Robb Stark? Probably no one, because Jeyne is introduced in ASOS, despite the fact the marriage happened during the events of ACOK. And I don't believe that finishing the main saga in the 2000s would have stopped the headcanons. Fans (including me) made theories and headcanons about past events, and minor characters.
u/Clarkey71631Aug 1, 2026, 4:26 PM
AKOTSK fuckin slapped but it will 100% begin to get heavy criticism if they go beyond s3 and the books, unfortunate but thats just how it be
- u/TutorRich22681Aug 1, 2026, 5:54 PM
  The only critism where the scat fetish content is missing that vital line... That was not the headcanons OP talked about.
u/breakfastbenedict1Aug 1, 2026, 4:30 PM
I think the reason why he can’t finish the series is also why fans aren’t happy with the play and other semi-canon stuff. He’s just set up a situation where nothing is going to be fully satisfying.
u/matgopack1Aug 1, 2026, 4:35 PM
The combination of changing times + how much people have dug into the series analysis wise has a massive impact on how stuff gets interpreted. Eg, R+L being a doomed romance and Rhaegar being a well meaning, well liked, and probably good would-be king seems to me to be the way GRRM is planning to go; but add in 30 years of changes in how we view age gap relationships (from relatively normal to a much better understanding of grooming and issues there) + 15 years of no mainline ASOIAF books with constant theorizing and analysis, and that results in a need to reject the 1st order interpretation of a lot of the books. Otherwise what would be the point of continuing to talk about them for so long, if everything that's in them has already been found?
u/AccentualRye1Aug 1, 2026, 5:27 PM
What's up, honey? You haven't even touched your 1000th post by a privated account that, instead of defending HOTD's or the play's choices based on their merits, attributes psychopathological patronizing motives to those who criticize them... yet?!
- u/Plus_Claim_89381Aug 1, 2026, 5:57 PM
  I don’t even *like* HOTD, brochacho
u/Natedude20021Aug 1, 2026, 5:29 PM
Idk I feel like all the changes to dunk and egg were very well received. Especially Lyonel
u/ValuableRegular96841Aug 1, 2026, 5:35 PM
Nah, Martin deserves the fan hate, he gaslit his fans for 15 years about finishing ASOIAF. As soon as HBO started shoveling money at him and gave him the opportunity to get back into Hollywood, ASOIAF was doomed. In my opinion he’s a good author that sold out his chance to be a great one. The whole yes, maybe, no, let me think about it, is it canon is simply a cash grab on his part to keep fans interested.
u/No-Car5411Aug 1, 2026, 5:47 PM
This is why I have sympathy for the writers of the show. They were put into an impossible situation because George didn’t finish the books. They wound up having to end the story and no matter what they did, they were going to piss off significant sections of the fan base who already had theories about the ending that they were sure was right.
u/penis_pockets1Aug 1, 2026, 6:00 PM
I agree with this post a lot. Something else that bothers me is the format in which this information has been revealed as well. I think it's cheap and lazy to release information regarding various characters in a play that's kind of, sort of, maybe? Canon with some parts that aren't canon while others are and also parts that flat out contradict actual parts of the established story. It doesn't make sense, it's confusing, and it was bound to invoke discussion/arguments amongst the fanbase as a result of the nature of its release. George could've just made a Word document with bullet points with all the canon information, and it wouldn't have been as bad.
- u/_AnecdotalEvidence_1Aug 1, 2026, 6:03 PM
  He can’t keep milking cash out of it if he did that though
  - u/penis_pockets1Aug 1, 2026, 6:13 PM
u/cataclytsm1Aug 1, 2026, 6:04 PM
ASOIAF and Dragon Ball are approaching a purple circle on the venn diagram of fandoms that have no idea what is or isn't "canon". For very, very different reasons, but it is still funny to see the overlap
u/Koushik_Vijayakumar1Aug 1, 2026, 6:08 PM
I'm more pissed about the fact that some information about the books are revealed in a fuckin play which almost none of the fans will ever get to watch.
u/TheNaijaboi1Aug 1, 2026, 6:46 PM
I especially love how he always said he didn't want to do a Robert's Rebellion show of movie because it would reveal too much only to do then release it in a more exclusive medium. Dude is hilarious
u/Recent_Tap_94671Aug 1, 2026, 6:51 PM
Or maybe fans rightfully perceive a distinction between good content and not-so-good content and react accordingly. You also can't call fans "spoiled" in good conscience, a *lot* of people were happy with GoT until S8 and AKOT7K is highly regarded despite being just one season.
u/Recent_Tap_94671Aug 1, 2026, 7:01 PM
Or maybe fans rightfully perceive a distinction between good content and not-so-good content and react accordingly. You also can't call fans "spoiled" in good conscience when a lot of people were happy with GoT until S8 (I still am willing to defend S7, if not every aspect of it) and AKOT7K is highly regarded despite being just one season. Quality can and does speak for itself, and your HoTD argument actually doesn't work when S1 was well-liked by most fans and even praised by George himself while the seasons beyond...weren't. The "people invented headcanon" excuse doesn't work when the author himself is criticizing the adaptation and we see how GoT largely avoided this same flaw from S1 to S2, then from S2 to S3 and from S3 to S4, then from S4 to S5 and from S5 to S6, and finally from S6 to S7 (albeit this is where things get more contentious).